Talk:The Mibu Clan
Kurenai doesnt have a dojutsu, please do not alter canon facts.!--[[User:Shiratori Cullen|''' 楽しい']] (talk to Fenix!) 02:17, October 30, 2010 (UTC) Re: Canon Facts Of course she didnt. Doesnt mean I cant expand on the clan as a whole. It was stated in the series that she and her family originated outside of Konoha, likely her parents migrated before her birth, but either way, I'm just expanding on whats available. I'll put up a disclaimer that states this is to be used for author fanon and fanfiction only. If anyone wants to RP with me, then they can ask, but I doubt anyone would really have any problems with this. I mean, isnt that what was done for the Uchiha Clan II? As I recall it had some new Master Sharingan or something of that nature. Sounds a lot like it was expanding on something in canon. Forgive me if I'm coming off as arrogant or disrespectful, believe me, its mostly towards what Kishimoto is doing to the series, but thats a topic for another rainy day. In regards to the articles I create, or canon content I make use, I plan on expanding on whatever fancies me. Of course I'll put up the disclaimer, and for the most part wont be used for general Role Playing, but well no need to repeat myself twice. If there is a problem in quality, please be sure to tell me where I can fix it, I'll be happy to do so. --- Illuminate Void 02:35, October 30, 2010 (UTC) Hey, only the '''anime'' stated she migrated to Konoha. All manga evidence suggests no such thing. Not wise to just base what you're doing on the anime only. Naruto Wiki even states that her eyes aren't a dojutsu, yet you're using her picture as an example of the eyes.--私はあくまで執事ですから - "I'm one hell of a butler."'' ("Heaven?") 02:44, October 30, 2010 (UTC)'' :And the Uchiha Clan 2 was from long ago before all the rules changed. You cant break canon precedents even in personal fan fictions and besides like aha stated The manga (which is kishimoto's direct word) doesnt state anything about what the anime says.--[[User:Shiratori Cullen|''' 楽しい']] (talk to Fenix!) 02:50, October 30, 2010 (UTC) I'm not going to involve myself in this, but I will state this; in '''fanon' you follow the canon as set forth by the manga, only using the anime as a secondary source. In fanfiction, the author can throw out the canon completely if one wishes. So, it depends on which term he is writing in. ---'Ten Tailed Fox' talk page 02:57, October 30, 2010 (UTC) I'll reiterate myself then, I know that her eyes are NOT a Kekkai Genkai. But regardless I'm expanding on the content. Just like anyone else here. It would be no different were I to expand on the Nara Clan, going on to explain the intricacies of the very nature of their Shadow-Imitation technique and elaborating on how it could be a bloodline due to the manipulation of Yin-Yang Chakra (which isnt a bad idea either). Look, I dont expect you to agree with me, but when it comes to Naruto, I enjoy expanding on content, explaining it in my own way, figuring out how it works. I'll probably do it more often, but as I said earlier, I will not be using this for general roleplay. This is strictly for this authors fanon and fanfiction. --- Illuminate Void 03:05, October 30, 2010 (UTC) Void, Yes this may be for your personal stories BUT if you are going to use the term fanon in your disclaimer then you must follow the manga and as such you cant say that the Yuuhi clan has a kekkei genkai nor is it apart of this clan as a whole.--[[User:Shiratori Cullen|''' 楽しい']] (talk to Fenix!) 18:47, October 30, 2010 (UTC) The only discrepancy was giving them a bloodline, which as inferred by the manga dont have, could just as easily be false. Honestly I cant tell whats considered canon in canon anymore because shinobi lie. Period. You can take things at face value, or you can ask reasonable questions...such as why Sasuke partnered up with '''the guy who helped kill his clan', but meh thats just me. The way I see it, its the best kept secret of the Yuuhi clan. No one outside of the Mibu Clan knows that the Yuuhi actually have a bloodline limit. They perpetuate this story that its not, and people actually accept it. Considering this is a shinobi world where knowledge is power, its rather funny when you think about it. I'm going with the assumption, just as any of you have by taking it at face value by believing they dont, that they lied and in fact do. Its why most Yuuhi tend to specialize in genjutsu anyways (well at least in this clan anyways). When you can read minds...it becomes a heck of a lot easier to influence them, make the illusions become reality. Is this a roundabout answer? No doubt, but its one I feel is a better explanation for whats going on. If you restrict someones ability to expand on content, nothing new gets created, hence the reason why there's a whole lot of Mangekyou Sharingan's running around, with little to no reason as to why they exist in the first place. I'm putting the effort into providing reasonable explanations for some of the gaping plot holes, which by their very nature allow me to expand the content that you don't want me to. The real question is, why try to enforce this strict adherence to canon? Its one thing to expand upon and add detail - which is what I'm trying to do. As opposed to just rewriting it completely, like saying the Uchiha Massacre never happened. The difference being what can be considered reasonable/fair/etc. So far no one has claimed that what I'm doing is so ridiculous that it could never happen, only that its stated in canon that they dont. And thats only in Narutopedia. As for myself, I personally prefer www.leafninja.com for my information, I find its a better source imho. I dont recall any time in the manga where they specifically stated she did not have doujutsu and leafninja made no comment. So in lieu of that lack of intel, I'm going to say that she does. And it deals with her chosen speciality. Now, does anyone actually have a problem with the reason there is a doujutsu or are people going to argue simple semantics? --- Illuminate Void 22:45, October 30, 2010 (UTC) Okay, this has gone on long enough. Fenix, you can't really do anything about what he's doing, so just stop arguing your point. Now on to Illuminate. You just called Kishimoto a liar in your last comment, as he stated in one of his Databooks that Kurenai does not have a Doujutsu. So, I suggest you stop straying from Canon, as that can get you in trouble with other admins. So, it currently stands that the Yuhi Clan is not in possession of any sort of Kekkei Genkai. That is the final say on this matter. Good day. 무극 (talk to Joker!) 22:55, October 30, 2010 (UTC) : Kou, what he's saying is that ninja are people and people lie. Databooks have also listed Zetsu as being from Konoha...Also, Kishi and Kubo have been known to change things after they wrote them. In each databook released, Kubo has changed the names of some characters and there have beens somethings that Kishi has said he'll do that he hasn't or that he has altogether trashed. The point he's trying to make is that canon is established facts; and not all of what the characters say are facts; thus why there is two versions of the Uchiha massacre story (we all know Madara lied now) and why there are several stories of what really happened when the Nine Tails attacks (only now are we getting answers on that). The fact is that canon is always changing and he is just expanding on what he knows from the canon source. Like he said, if you restrict what others can and cannot create, you get a whole lot of Mangekyō Sharingan/Rinnegan etc. That's why we're changing so many rules. ---'Ten Tailed Fox' talk page 23:03, October 30, 2010 (UTC) ::If I may ask, what ideas has Kishimoto changed or trashed? Also, could I please see the Databook that says Zetsu's from Konoha? 무극 (talk to Joker!) 23:06, October 30, 2010 (UTC) :::At Ten, can you please clarify your comment? because if your disagreeing with the databook/canon isnt that itself counter productive. And by the standing of the canon/databooks Kishi has not given a kekkei genkai dojutsu or otherwise which means that User:Illuminate Void cannot give them one here even if he is simply "expanding on history" Because Kishimoto made no reference to her or her clan having one only that her eyes which are red for unknown reasons and where is no reference to what color her parents eyes were as they arent shown in the anime and only once in the manga i think.--[[User:Shiratori Cullen|''' 楽しい']] (talk to Fenix!) 23:10, October 30, 2010 (UTC) : Kou, check Narutopedia if you're so interested in looking up the databooks. I'm not going to hunt all over the web for translations of the databooks just so that I may source myself. As for what Kishimoto has changed? This year was stated by Kishi to have had the manga taken focus off of Naruto and placed on Kakashi. Either Kishi has trashed that plan or decided to move it to next year. That is only one example. Now, Shiatori, please check your grammar as I hardly understood a word you said. ---'Ten Tailed Fox' talk page 23:18, October 30, 2010 (UTC) Narutopedia states that Zetsu's ''CCG card said he was from Konoha, not the Databook. Also, I saw that interview about focusing on Kakashi in the coming year. In my opinion, I think he's just delaying it, because he's trying to to incorporate the coming war into the manga. So, Databooks haven't shown any fault at the current time, so I think the Yuhi KG should be suspended until further investigation. 무극 (talk to Joker!) 23:27, October 30, 2010 (UTC) :All i was asking was to clarify what you said in your comment because it is unclear. Because Kishimoto has NEVER once hinted at or her clan has a kekkei genkai or that she is from outside the leaf village. --[[User:Shiratori Cullen|''' 楽しい']] (talk to Fenix!) 23:28, October 30, 2010 (UTC) : :Actually I didnt call Kishimoto a liar, merely that the capacity to lie with his characters is there, given their profession as shinobi - basically what Ten said. As for the databook, and Kishi's contradictions, I'll elaborate: It was stated that the only way to gain the Mangekyou Sharingan was by killing your best friend. Yet Madara, his brother and even Kakashi crapped all over that claim. It was also stated that Kakashi copied over a thousand techniques (and given that quantity, I can assume all five elements at that), yet later in the series craps on that by stating a shinobi can only use elements they have an affinity towards. Heck it even craps on the Sharingan ability copy techniques. Does this mean the Sharingan suddenly gives its wielder the ability to use ANY of the five basic elements? As long as its copied? We dont know, its never stated, not even hinted upon. Has anyone even considered that? Probably not. Is it going to be changed? I dont know..is it? Its why I ask these questions. Its why I like expanding on content, because then you HAVE TO explain whats really going on. Can anyone here, really explain how their high level techniques work? If you were to consider chakra a science in Naruto, could you even explain how some of your techniques work beyond the flavor and fluff? No offense, but I sincerely doubt it. Why? Most people dont think to consider the actual mechanics behind the technique and why its doing what its doing or how, merely the effect thats produced. Its not a potshot to you or any other user, but an observation by someone who really, really tries to understand what in kami's name is going on. --- Illuminate Void 23:30, October 30, 2010 (UTC) ::Like I previously stated, this page should be suspended until further investigation. There is no proof that Kurenai has a KG, as such we shouldn't speculate that she does have one. End. Of. Discussion. '무극' (talk to Joker!) 23:41, October 30, 2010 (UTC) ::Err...have you been reading anything Ive written? Ive already acknowledged...several times that Kurenai does not have a Kekkai Genkai. In fact we dont even know if she has a clan either. Only that "her family originated outside of Konoha". Given that, I'm actually quite free to say that such a clan does exist and go on to say it does have a bloodline limit. I've already put up the disclaimer saying it wont be used outside of my own works, so why are trying to suspend my page again? Also, ignoring my questions, isnt how you get people to respond well to you're own proposals either. --- Illuminate Void 23:49, October 30, 2010 (UTC) :Since when did I want you or anyone to respond well? I stated that Kurenai does NOT have a KG. She does have a clan, as family is a synonym for clan. Also, as anime is NOT canon, them originating outside of Konoha is false information and should not be used on NF. Now, I can either delete this page (Although it should never come to that), or I can continue to argue about something so pointless. Which do you prefer? '무극' (talk to Joker!) 23:53, October 30, 2010 (UTC) : Kou, if the manga doesn't state it then the anime can make that claim. The anime is always a secondary source. Until the manga explains more about Kurenai, he can make all the assumptions he wants based off the anime. Period, end of discussion. Kurenai doesn't have a kekkei genkai, but just like with the Uchiha and Senju, not all members of a clan can awaken the kekkei genkai of their clan. So what if he said the Yuuhi clan has a kekkei genkai? Just because Kurenai can't use one doesn't mean others can't. Lay off of him already. I will not support suspending his article based on that argument. ---'Ten Tailed Fox' talk page 23:57, October 30, 2010 (UTC) ::Whatever. I give up. This is a pointless argument, and it's just stressing me out, which is not what I need due to the events of this past week. Do whatever you want. Have a field day with it. I don't care, as long as I can enjoy the rest of my weekend. '무극' (talk to Joker!) 00:00, October 31, 2010 (UTC) Issue :''Mibu Clan Akagan ("Red Eyes"): The first manifestation of the Mystic Chakra Gate, results in the development of additional tenketsu within the body, effectively doubling the total number from 360 to 720. This is physically and realistically incorrect. Stating that shows you have no idea how pressure points work, at all. Tenketsu are pressure points that are along the chakra network. You can't ADD more to that anymore than you could physically weaken or strengthen one's organs. First off, adding more Tenketsu to the body would cut off double the amount of chakra in the body, since they serve as chakra limiters. Doing so would cause the body to also double the amount of chakra gates in the body, so it can obtain equilibrium, which will literally cut a user's usable chakra in half. Also, "a heightened state of chakra flow, causing the body to build additional muscular tissue, and bone marrow to compensate" is also incorrect. While chakra is drawn from both spiritual power and physical power, chakra is energy and muscular tissue is mass. Energy cannot turn into Mass without the energy of a million nuclear bombs. Rock Lee, upon opening the gates, attained great strength because the chakra was causing his muscles to expand and stretch, NOT giving him more muscles. That's literally impossible, and thus, is just completely incorrect. Naruto, unlike Bleach, follows realistic limitations and thus, energy cannot become matter like that. You should probably adjust these issues, in order to make this article better in terms of realism. --Seireitou-shishō (My True Identity | Talk to Me :3) 20:19, October 31, 2010 (UTC) The 720 tenketsu points wasnt intentional. Had to save my progress, since I had to step out. But the purpose for giving them additional muscular tissue and bone marrow actually makes more sense when you break it down. I modified it so that the description was more clear, but chakra is composed of physical energy, which is why when its applied to the muscles, they grow stronger, since there is no more energy for use. In this way the constant expenditure of chakra, which in turn caused them to lose physical energy derived from the cells, was basically working them out constantly. Its a bit of a stretch, but if done on a consistent basis, the body would have to adapt, ie building muscle. If you have any idea, I'm all for it, but its still in the planning phase. I'm only keeping there as a placeholder for now till I get something more concrete, otherwise I'm going to have to change it anyway. --- Illuminate Void 23:31, October 31, 2010 (UTC) Explanation You say a sub sect of this clan all have rinnegan, that is a little far fetched as not much is known about the rinnegan and many theories have been formed around its origin and how its passed as Madara stated he gave nagato the rinnegan, which could very mean that there was only ever one rinnegan in history and nagato had the sage's actual eyes. The other is that its a genetic mutation as stated by kakashi or that its passed directly thru the sage's bloodline which would mean it only can possibly show up in the Uchiha (thru his son) or the Senju (thru the other son) and the Uzumaki (thru the relation to Senju as Nagato was an Uzumaki). I know that this is supposed to be in your own world but it need some validation to it in my personal opinion because if you think about it a clan full of rinnegan users even if they cant use Pains jutsu would still be incredibly powerful.--[[User:Shiratori Cullen|''' 楽しい']] (talk to Fenix!) 16:34, November 2, 2010 (UTC) : First of all, the fact that they are the Sage's eyes are factually and physically impossible. First off, Madara didn't live in the Sage's time, so there is no way that he could've preserved the eyes. After hundreds of years, eyes would simply decompose, like the rest of the body. So, unless Kishi invents some plot hax, those aren't the Sage's eyes and that means its a Kekkei Genkai that appears in a certain clan. It ''cannot be a mutation. We know that it came, most likely, from the Ten-Tails, as it has an eye similar in appearance to the Rinnegan and was mostly likely passed on to the sage when he sealed the beast within him. Another reason why it cannot be a mutation is that Kakashi only assumes this due to the fact that he doesn't believe the Sage existed, which we know now is false; he did exist. It couldn't have been passed down through the Uchiha, as no Uchiha has demonstrated it, nor has any Senju. Only the Uzumaki have demonstrated use of the Rinnegan since the Sage's death. If Madara "gave" Nagato the Rinnegan, which we must take with a grain of salt since we know he's lied before, then we have a standstill, because we don't know where they came from. I think Madara meant that he somehow assisted in Nagato's awakening of the Rinnegan (by some plot hax where he orchestrated the events that led up to Nagato's awakening). Nagato had them as a young child, and so its doubtful that he actually implanted them into Nagato. My theory is that the Rinnegan randomly appears in certain ninja throughout history and until some canon fact shows up to prove otherwise, that's what I'm sticking with. The canon has only hinted that the Sage and the Uzumaki (via Nagato) can use it, but it certainly seems more random. ---'Ten Tailed Fox' talk page 16:53, November 2, 2010 (UTC) ::Ten i know all of that, I was stating what the canon has said regarding it and how its passed on (since kishi hasnt said anything on how it was passed). I wasnt saying that it was actual fact about it, i was simply asking Void a question of how his clan's sub sect had the rinnegan. And i was giving examples of which clans WOULD probably yield this dojutsu as they are the closest link to the sage himself.--[[User:Shiratori Cullen|''' 楽しい']] (talk to Fenix!) 17:36, November 2, 2010 (UTC) I'm currently trying to tackle this problem, I've already asked another user for help, and thats one of the primary concerns right now is trying to fit it in. Given how little information there is on the Rinnegan, I may have to drop it from the Clan. I'm all for expanding content, but to do this, I may have to rewrite canon history and obviously thats a no go. That and given the current structure, I dont think I can find any reasonable solution in the near future. This clan is still undergoing construction, so I may find something later. Until then consider the Rinnegan as '''pending until further notice'. Although there is something that should be mentioned. Fukasaku Sennin is known to be over 800+ years old, and even he considered the Rinnegan to be a mere myth. Given that, how old is the legend of the Rikudou Sennin then? Also keep in mind that the Kyuubi is regarded as an age-old natural disaster appearing once every few centuries. Add all this up and the Naruto World likely has over a thousand years of history long before the creation of the Hidden Villages. Just a little something to ponder on. Anyway this has given me some other things to consider, appreciate the reviews. --- Illuminate Void 17:01, November 2, 2010 (UTC) I'd like to just add that the Rinnegan is Rikudou's, so any Rinnegan that comes up after Rikudou's, is because of his blood. His descendants are the Uchiha and the Senju, as well as the Uzumaki. My proof is in that Hashirama was married to Mito Uzumaki, therefore saying that the blood of the Senju found its way inside the Uzumaki genepool. There's no logical reason why this "Mibu Clan" also has a Rinnegan in their genepool. --Seireitou-shishō (My True Identity | Talk to Me :3) 18:45, November 2, 2010 (UTC) Assuming the Rikudou Sennin was over a thousand years ago, that actually makes it easier to show up in any given genepool. And based on that we can also assume the Rinnegan is more of an...atavism; meaning it can develop 40+ generations down the line to near full power (similar to what happened to Yusuke from YuYu Hakusho). For any clan or individual it would be a trifling matter to just say that one of the descendants married into your family tree and thus the potential for the Rinnegan is there. But I'd rather not go that route. As you mentioned, I created a clan, where its manifestation is about as probably as the Sharingan developing within an Uchiha. That is the real issue at hand. Were it a single person, no one would really bother, but an entire clan? I admit I'm going to need some pretty good explanations for that. Hmm...actually...I think I may have something. --- Illuminate Void 19:28, November 2, 2010 (UTC) Rinnegan Removal As of now, I will be removing all instances of the Rinnegan from the Mibu Clan. --- Illuminate Void 03:11, November 3, 2010 (UTC)